1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,630 [Music] 2 00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:08,470 welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:16,830 --> 00:00:11,280 the podcast from australia for science 4 00:00:23,269 --> 00:00:16,840 and reason 5 00:00:25,429 --> 00:00:23,279 [Music] 6 00:00:26,670 --> 00:00:25,439 yes it's the skeptic's own podcast 7 00:00:29,950 --> 00:00:26,680 episode number 8 00:00:32,549 --> 00:00:29,960 639 for the 10th of january 9 00:00:34,229 --> 00:00:32,559 2021 richard saunders coming to you from 10 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:34,239 sydney australia 11 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:35,760 oh i think it's going to be a bright 12 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:37,920 sunny day which is unusual for the last 13 00:00:42,229 --> 00:00:40,000 couple of weeks it's been cloudy rainy 14 00:00:45,670 --> 00:00:42,239 cloudy muggy hot rainy cloudy hot 15 00:00:46,869 --> 00:00:45,680 rainy muggy might be a good day for a 16 00:00:48,310 --> 00:00:46,879 long walk 17 00:00:50,549 --> 00:00:48,320 coming up at the top of the show i 18 00:00:52,709 --> 00:00:50,559 talked to adrian hill from canada 19 00:00:54,069 --> 00:00:52,719 a new old friend of mine i've been 20 00:00:57,670 --> 00:00:54,079 dealing with 21 00:00:59,750 --> 00:00:57,680 enjoying my time seeing adrian online 22 00:01:02,549 --> 00:00:59,760 during the great prediction project and 23 00:01:05,509 --> 00:01:02,559 during susan gerbic's trivia quiz 24 00:01:06,390 --> 00:01:05,519 she spoke at uh monterey skeptic camp 25 00:01:08,789 --> 00:01:06,400 just last week as 26 00:01:10,070 --> 00:01:08,799 as did i and she was speaking about 27 00:01:11,670 --> 00:01:10,080 tourette syndrome 28 00:01:13,670 --> 00:01:11,680 with such an interesting talk i thought 29 00:01:14,390 --> 00:01:13,680 i would interview her for the skeptic 30 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:14,400 zone 31 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:16,880 and you'll discover some of the uh 32 00:01:20,149 --> 00:01:18,880 alternative so-called alternative 33 00:01:23,030 --> 00:01:20,159 treatments being offered 34 00:01:25,109 --> 00:01:23,040 to people with tourette's syndrome like 35 00:01:27,590 --> 00:01:25,119 homeopathy and 36 00:01:29,749 --> 00:01:27,600 things like that following that it's 37 00:01:31,510 --> 00:01:29,759 logical fallacies with michelle bigesma 38 00:01:35,830 --> 00:01:31,520 hello michelle down there 39 00:01:37,990 --> 00:01:35,840 in victoria and what have you for 40 00:01:41,270 --> 00:01:38,000 us this week michelle you will be 41 00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:41,280 speaking about affirming the consequent 42 00:01:45,109 --> 00:01:42,960 i wonder what that's all about find out 43 00:01:46,789 --> 00:01:45,119 later on with michelle bickersma 44 00:01:49,510 --> 00:01:46,799 then to round off the show it's another 45 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:49,520 dive into trove we continue our series 46 00:01:55,109 --> 00:01:51,439 into the unknown 47 00:01:58,550 --> 00:01:55,119 and this week our so-called medium 48 00:02:01,270 --> 00:01:58,560 mrs hughes goes into a trance 49 00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:01,280 and is taken over by the spirit of white 50 00:02:05,109 --> 00:02:02,560 feather 51 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:05,119 a fascinating look at investigations 52 00:02:12,229 --> 00:02:07,040 into the 53 00:02:14,229 --> 00:02:12,239 is a continuing series there'll be more 54 00:02:16,150 --> 00:02:14,239 next week and the week after 55 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:16,160 now speaking of meetings online like 56 00:02:19,670 --> 00:02:17,280 skepticamp 57 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:19,680 in monterey just the other week we also 58 00:02:23,510 --> 00:02:20,560 had here in 59 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:23,520 sydney just in the past few days uh 60 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:25,200 australian skeptics 61 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:28,000 sydney skeptics in the pub our guest 62 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:29,840 speaker was kenny biddle 63 00:02:33,589 --> 00:02:32,720 the well-known paranormal investigator 64 00:02:36,390 --> 00:02:33,599 if you missed 65 00:02:38,150 --> 00:02:36,400 seeing that live you can now see that on 66 00:02:39,910 --> 00:02:38,160 youtube at the australian skeptics 67 00:02:41,270 --> 00:02:39,920 youtube channel and i'll link to that in 68 00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:41,280 the show notes and a big thank you to 69 00:02:44,229 --> 00:02:42,800 kenny biddle for staying up to some 70 00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:44,239 stupid hour in the morning 71 00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:47,200 to join us live here in sydney and also 72 00:02:52,070 --> 00:02:49,280 coming up on the 18th 73 00:02:53,670 --> 00:02:52,080 of january so the 18th of this month on 74 00:02:57,670 --> 00:02:53,680 monday the 18th 75 00:03:01,270 --> 00:02:57,680 we have a skeptic's cafe from victoria 76 00:03:04,309 --> 00:03:01,280 and their special guest speaker 77 00:03:05,190 --> 00:03:04,319 on next time will be gabrielle jackson 78 00:03:08,550 --> 00:03:05,200 now she's 79 00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:08,560 the associate editor news and audio for 80 00:03:12,550 --> 00:03:10,640 the guardian australia and was 81 00:03:16,229 --> 00:03:12,560 previously the opinion editor 82 00:03:17,830 --> 00:03:16,239 she is the author of pain and prejudice 83 00:03:20,630 --> 00:03:17,840 which has been published in 84 00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:20,640 australia and new zealand and the united 85 00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:22,879 kingdom and the united states and canada 86 00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:25,760 just about everywhere so her talk is 87 00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:26,799 about 88 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:28,560 chronic pain what is chronic pain and 89 00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:31,040 who gets it why do we know so little 90 00:03:35,830 --> 00:03:33,760 about the mechanisms of chronic pain 91 00:03:38,309 --> 00:03:35,840 a painful subject and you can find out 92 00:03:41,830 --> 00:03:38,319 more as you tune in live 93 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:41,840 to skeptics cafe on monday the 18th 94 00:03:45,509 --> 00:03:44,480 no matter where you are in the world and 95 00:03:49,030 --> 00:03:45,519 i will add a link 96 00:03:52,309 --> 00:03:50,630 i'm tempted to make some sort of 97 00:03:54,390 --> 00:03:52,319 editorial 98 00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:54,400 or commentary about the situation in 99 00:03:59,110 --> 00:03:55,840 washington over the past 100 00:04:01,270 --> 00:03:59,120 few days i think i 101 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:01,280 really don't have to say too much lots 102 00:04:04,149 --> 00:04:03,120 of other people will say something far 103 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:04,159 more 104 00:04:07,589 --> 00:04:06,480 wise and intelligent than than i can i'm 105 00:04:09,589 --> 00:04:07,599 sure 106 00:04:10,630 --> 00:04:09,599 but maybe i will comment on the fact 107 00:04:12,869 --> 00:04:10,640 that uh 108 00:04:14,149 --> 00:04:12,879 what you probably saw is a demonstration 109 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:14,159 of a 110 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:16,000 almost complete lack of critical 111 00:04:19,270 --> 00:04:18,560 thinking on the part of the people who 112 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:19,280 invaded 113 00:04:25,590 --> 00:04:23,280 stormed uh the capitol building and 114 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:25,600 what what better example can you 115 00:04:28,629 --> 00:04:26,960 possibly have of 116 00:04:30,390 --> 00:04:28,639 the saying well what's the harm what's 117 00:04:32,150 --> 00:04:30,400 the harm in believing in conspiracy 118 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:32,160 theories what's the harm when you fall 119 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:32,960 for the 120 00:04:36,710 --> 00:04:35,840 logical fallacy of argument from 121 00:04:38,390 --> 00:04:36,720 authority 122 00:04:39,749 --> 00:04:38,400 what's the harm when you take matters 123 00:04:41,909 --> 00:04:39,759 into your own hands 124 00:04:42,790 --> 00:04:41,919 i will make a prediction though i think 125 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:42,800 i can predict 126 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:45,840 quite safely that between now and the 127 00:04:48,390 --> 00:04:47,840 next episode of the skeptic zone we're 128 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:48,400 all in 129 00:04:54,310 --> 00:04:52,240 for a wild ride it might do us well to 130 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:54,320 remember more blissful memories 131 00:04:57,830 --> 00:04:56,080 of things we've done in our lives from 132 00:04:59,189 --> 00:04:57,840 times past 133 00:05:01,830 --> 00:04:59,199 i'm sure you have some wonderful 134 00:05:04,629 --> 00:05:01,840 memories i certainly do 135 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:04,639 now it's time for me to run downstairs 136 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:05,520 and 137 00:05:11,350 --> 00:05:09,930 fritter 138 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:11,360 [Music] 139 00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:13,120 fry that up on the fry pan while i do 140 00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:37,270 [Music] 141 00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:39,360 and joining me now from beautiful 142 00:05:44,070 --> 00:05:41,919 calgary alberta canada the winter 143 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:44,080 wonderland the home of the calgary 144 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:47,680 stampede it's adrian hill hello adrian 145 00:05:51,670 --> 00:05:49,680 hi richard how are you doing i'm doing 146 00:05:53,350 --> 00:05:51,680 really well look do you um 147 00:05:55,510 --> 00:05:53,360 well apart from last year of course do 148 00:05:56,710 --> 00:05:55,520 you often front up at the calgary 149 00:06:00,230 --> 00:05:56,720 stampede 150 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:00,240 not very often to be honest uh we go 151 00:06:04,870 --> 00:06:03,039 we go occasionally we particularly like 152 00:06:07,909 --> 00:06:04,880 the entertainment part of it 153 00:06:08,629 --> 00:06:07,919 but i don't tend to go too much of the 154 00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:08,639 rodeo 155 00:06:12,629 --> 00:06:11,120 oh okay and i was just about to say for 156 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:12,639 those people who may not know it's a 157 00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:13,440 giant 158 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:15,600 rodeo it's can it canada's biggest radio 159 00:06:18,870 --> 00:06:17,360 i think it is yes i wouldn't be 160 00:06:20,710 --> 00:06:18,880 surprised if it was one of north 161 00:06:23,029 --> 00:06:20,720 america's largest rodeos 162 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:23,039 well let's hope fingers crossed and toes 163 00:06:27,590 --> 00:06:24,160 crossed that 164 00:06:28,790 --> 00:06:27,600 they can hold it this year yes it was 165 00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:28,800 cancelled this last year 166 00:06:32,230 --> 00:06:30,400 yeah like everything else yeah 167 00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:32,240 everything else exactly and everything 168 00:06:35,909 --> 00:06:34,160 else now the reason i've contacted you 169 00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:35,919 adrian is we're old friends we've never 170 00:06:38,710 --> 00:06:37,680 met but we're old friends we've been uh 171 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:38,720 seeing each other 172 00:06:45,189 --> 00:06:42,080 most of 2020 173 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:45,199 with susan gerbic's wonderful uh weekly 174 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:46,720 trivia games 175 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:50,800 and yes the interesting and bizarre 176 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:52,960 uh australian prediction project where 177 00:06:59,749 --> 00:06:55,440 you're one of the volunteers helping to 178 00:07:00,070 --> 00:06:59,759 um to score psychics predictions going 179 00:07:01,749 --> 00:07:00,080 back 180 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:01,759 20 years before we get into the main 181 00:07:04,230 --> 00:07:03,599 topic i hope you're enjoying that that 182 00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:04,240 prediction 183 00:07:11,029 --> 00:07:07,520 it's awesome yeah i i mean i've 184 00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:11,039 gotten to know many celebrities i'd 185 00:07:13,589 --> 00:07:12,560 never heard of that are famous in 186 00:07:17,029 --> 00:07:13,599 australia 187 00:07:20,710 --> 00:07:17,039 and i've learned all about the weather 188 00:07:21,029 --> 00:07:20,720 in australia yes and crime in australia 189 00:07:23,430 --> 00:07:21,039 yeah 190 00:07:25,029 --> 00:07:23,440 so i can't wait to go to australia 191 00:07:27,029 --> 00:07:25,039 that's right and you've learned all 192 00:07:28,230 --> 00:07:27,039 sorts of things about nicole kidman you 193 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:28,240 never knew 194 00:07:33,350 --> 00:07:31,280 that's right that's correct 195 00:07:35,189 --> 00:07:33,360 and things i think she never knew either 196 00:07:37,589 --> 00:07:35,199 that's right 197 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:37,599 and and i think i've let the the team 198 00:07:41,189 --> 00:07:38,720 the prediction team 199 00:07:42,550 --> 00:07:41,199 know that we were sort of the end was in 200 00:07:44,309 --> 00:07:42,560 sight there was light at the end of the 201 00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:44,319 tunnel after thousands of predictions 202 00:07:46,550 --> 00:07:45,680 and i've just in the last week 203 00:07:50,150 --> 00:07:46,560 discovered a 204 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:50,160 whole new archive of predictions you 205 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:50,800 have no 206 00:07:54,629 --> 00:07:53,520 idea so this will keep us happy for some 207 00:07:57,189 --> 00:07:54,639 months 208 00:07:58,309 --> 00:07:57,199 keep starting that's good it's fun it's 209 00:08:01,029 --> 00:07:58,319 a fun group and 210 00:08:03,029 --> 00:08:01,039 we have a good time and it's been good 211 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:03,039 during covet particularly because of the 212 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:04,160 isolation it's 213 00:08:07,749 --> 00:08:06,000 something to look forward to every week 214 00:08:09,909 --> 00:08:07,759 yeah i'm pleased about that 215 00:08:12,309 --> 00:08:09,919 now let's talk about the main topic um 216 00:08:14,469 --> 00:08:12,319 that i did contact you about today now 217 00:08:16,309 --> 00:08:14,479 tourette's tourette's now you gave a 218 00:08:19,670 --> 00:08:16,319 wonderfully interesting talk 219 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:19,680 just uh a few days ago at susan gerbic's 220 00:08:24,790 --> 00:08:22,560 monterey skeptic camp online which was 221 00:08:25,670 --> 00:08:24,800 enormous fun what interesting talks 222 00:08:27,670 --> 00:08:25,680 there were 223 00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:27,680 and i found your talk particularly 224 00:08:31,589 --> 00:08:29,840 interesting just as a quick overview for 225 00:08:32,389 --> 00:08:31,599 people who may not know they've probably 226 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:32,399 heard the term 227 00:08:35,990 --> 00:08:34,240 tourette's but don't know too much about 228 00:08:38,949 --> 00:08:36,000 it what's the 229 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:38,959 the concise version what's it all about 230 00:08:42,149 --> 00:08:40,240 well it's 231 00:08:44,230 --> 00:08:42,159 most people consider it to be the 232 00:08:44,949 --> 00:08:44,240 swearing tick and that's actually a bit 233 00:08:48,310 --> 00:08:44,959 of a myth 234 00:08:50,150 --> 00:08:48,320 it's mostly just verbal ticks and 235 00:08:51,829 --> 00:08:50,160 motor ticks and that's tourette syndrome 236 00:08:53,269 --> 00:08:51,839 if you have both of those for more than 237 00:08:55,750 --> 00:08:53,279 a year 238 00:08:56,949 --> 00:08:55,760 diagnosed before the age of 18 you have 239 00:08:58,949 --> 00:08:56,959 tourette syndrome 240 00:09:00,710 --> 00:08:58,959 so most people do not have the swearing 241 00:09:02,949 --> 00:09:00,720 tick though of course it is possible 242 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:02,959 so about 10 percent of people with 243 00:09:07,590 --> 00:09:04,000 tourette syndrome 244 00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:07,600 will have a swearing tick but uh as i 245 00:09:10,630 --> 00:09:09,360 say most people don't have it and they 246 00:09:12,550 --> 00:09:10,640 do tend to change 247 00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:12,560 so even if you have the swearing tick 248 00:09:17,509 --> 00:09:14,720 for a month a year or two years 249 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:17,519 most likely it will go away and be 250 00:09:20,389 --> 00:09:18,880 replaced by something else it might be 251 00:09:22,310 --> 00:09:20,399 worse it might be better 252 00:09:24,310 --> 00:09:22,320 hmm that's interesting because i think 253 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:24,320 most people if they've thought about it 254 00:09:26,949 --> 00:09:24,560 at 255 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:26,959 all would think of the the swearing tick 256 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:28,800 which has probably been made popular in 257 00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:29,200 some 258 00:09:35,430 --> 00:09:32,399 that you're saying it's it's just a tick 259 00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:35,440 so it could be a physical tick yes 260 00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:37,519 yes uh most of the ticks actually they 261 00:09:41,350 --> 00:09:38,880 usually start off being 262 00:09:43,350 --> 00:09:41,360 motor ticks or physical tics movements 263 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:43,360 any movement that you can think of can 264 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:44,800 become a tick and the most 265 00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:47,120 common tick is an eye blinking or eye 266 00:09:50,949 --> 00:09:49,040 rolling tick those are 267 00:09:52,790 --> 00:09:50,959 quite prevalent and usually the first 268 00:09:55,670 --> 00:09:52,800 ones to show up 269 00:09:57,430 --> 00:09:55,680 that's interesting but but that's not i 270 00:10:00,550 --> 00:09:57,440 guess it's not so socially 271 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:00,560 noticeable then the the swearing and not 272 00:10:03,430 --> 00:10:02,560 even the swearing you can say it can be 273 00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:03,440 any word 274 00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:06,160 or phrase they're not intentional those 275 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:08,000 so phrases that don't 276 00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:11,040 make sense and but they can sort of make 277 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:11,600 sense 278 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:14,800 such as my oldest son graham he would 279 00:10:18,470 --> 00:10:17,200 always say to me what's for dinner 280 00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:18,480 tonight mom and he would say in the 281 00:10:21,670 --> 00:10:20,240 morning he would say it after school but 282 00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:21,680 then he would say it during dinner and 283 00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:23,200 after dinner as well so then it doesn't 284 00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:24,800 make sense anymore 285 00:10:28,949 --> 00:10:27,200 so ticks are quite often like that they 286 00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:28,959 can be for whole phrases 287 00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:30,959 it can be made up things like my son 288 00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:33,200 also had a tick that said deuter 289 00:10:36,949 --> 00:10:35,360 and whenever we would introduce him and 290 00:10:37,829 --> 00:10:36,959 this is before we knew he had threat 291 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:37,839 syndrome 292 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:39,760 he would say this is our son graham he 293 00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:40,880 would go doyle 294 00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:43,200 hi nice to meet you and we would say 295 00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,480 that's so rude graham 296 00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:46,320 not realizing it was something he 297 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:47,760 couldn't control 298 00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,440 and you know he would say it in the 299 00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:51,360 middle of sentences and he would say it 300 00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:54,320 just as he was playing and we finally 301 00:10:58,829 --> 00:10:56,160 got the diagnosis when he was 302 00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:58,839 11 years old so he was quite old right 303 00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,079 so the 304 00:11:03,350 --> 00:11:02,079 the general outlook for tourette's is 305 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:03,360 does it uh 306 00:11:08,389 --> 00:11:06,720 decrease with age it can it's 307 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:08,399 about a third of the people diagnosed 308 00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,240 with tourette syndrome the symptoms 309 00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,480 either go away completely or they become 310 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:14,399 quite minimal about a third of the 311 00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:16,240 people stay the same 312 00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:18,079 throughout their lifetime and about a 313 00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:20,000 third they get worse as they head into 314 00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:21,760 adulthood really that's interesting i 315 00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:24,560 i i didn't know these figures and about 316 00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:26,320 what percentage of the population maybe 317 00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:27,360 in north america 318 00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:30,720 uh have turrets well i believe they've 319 00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:33,920 done some studies and it's a one percent 320 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:37,680 of adolescents and young children 321 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:40,160 for school-age children and it decreases 322 00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:42,160 into adulthood 323 00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:44,399 and i seem to remember during your talk 324 00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:45,279 you were 325 00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,519 speaking about some of the 326 00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:51,360 i don't know what the word is the more 327 00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,360 bizarre the more interesting to be 328 00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:54,399 polite 329 00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:57,519 treatments and cures that have come 330 00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:01,120 your way from maybe well-meaning people 331 00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:04,560 yes one of the most common questions 332 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,440 that i got 333 00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:08,480 as a representative of tourette canada 334 00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:09,360 originally and 335 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:12,399 and now uh the tourette ocd network in 336 00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:13,440 alberta 337 00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:16,480 was something called a tick tamer which 338 00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:19,200 is a homeopathic medication that is 339 00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:20,480 supposed to reduce 340 00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:24,480 the number and severity of text and 341 00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,639 it came up quite often and 342 00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:30,320 because people i think parents are 343 00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:32,160 desperate to help their kids 344 00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:35,519 and conventional treatments 345 00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,279 are difficult to find 346 00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:41,440 that help and they take a lot of effort 347 00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:43,120 and they take a lot of time 348 00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:45,600 and sometimes finding the right 349 00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,480 medication 350 00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,240 is very very difficult it can take 351 00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:50,160 sometimes years to find something that 352 00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:51,279 will actually help 353 00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:54,399 the student or the kids and 354 00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:56,560 so parents are really desperate and i 355 00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:58,160 think that was the most common one and i 356 00:13:01,509 --> 00:12:58,639 think 357 00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:01,519 right now on amazon.ca it's going for 358 00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:03,279 about a hundred and sixteen dollars for 359 00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:04,399 two ounces 360 00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:06,880 really it's very expensive and it 361 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:08,240 doesn't it's water right it's 362 00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:09,120 homeopathic 363 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,959 yeah yeah it's so it's it's either sugar 364 00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:12,160 or water of course 365 00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,880 uh but this is this is a familiar story 366 00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:16,079 if some 367 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,639 you know and let's look at parents they 368 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,360 have their child there who has a problem 369 00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:23,760 and they want to help as much as 370 00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,800 possible 371 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,639 and maybe they're not getting very far 372 00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:28,880 with tried and true techniques which 373 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:29,279 might 374 00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:32,480 take a long time or have mixed results 375 00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,519 is it any wonder they reach out for 376 00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:38,399 promises of of cures exactly and one of 377 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,600 the things that feeds 378 00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,360 into people believing that these things 379 00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,519 are working is tourette syndrome has a 380 00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,519 natural tendency to wax and wane 381 00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:47,279 so it naturally on its own will get 382 00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:49,199 better and it can get better for 383 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,440 a month at a time and we certainly saw 384 00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:53,440 that with our kids my i called my oldest 385 00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:54,079 son 386 00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,839 three weeks on three weeks off we'd have 387 00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:57,199 three really good weeks where everything 388 00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:59,199 was going really well the symptoms were 389 00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:01,120 great and then three weeks where it was 390 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:02,560 terrible so you could see they give them 391 00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,920 the drops they get better 392 00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,360 and they go wow look at how well it 393 00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:07,600 works yeah and so then they do it again 394 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:08,240 when you know 395 00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:09,680 and there's this repeating cycle and 396 00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:11,440 they they really truly believe that it's 397 00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,199 actually having an effect 398 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:15,360 all right so what the what other apart 399 00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:17,760 from homeopathy what other 400 00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,839 methodologies or treatments have come to 401 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,920 your notice well the other one 402 00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,240 is just came to my notice recently it 403 00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:26,639 was essentially a muzzle 404 00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:30,320 that it was called a tick silencer and 405 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:32,480 yeah and and that's available in both 406 00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:34,000 the us and canada 407 00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:37,360 and there's a a woman who does 408 00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:39,440 youtubing and she's a canadian girl that 409 00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,199 i met through tourette canada a lovely 410 00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:43,360 young lady who has very severe tourette 411 00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:46,079 syndrome and she did a video about this 412 00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:46,560 and 413 00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:50,240 was very very enraged naturally 414 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,560 about this because could you imagine 415 00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,320 it's already stigmatized having tourette 416 00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:56,000 syndrome and you're walking around with 417 00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:56,959 this muzzle 418 00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:59,839 that's supposed to stop you from ticking 419 00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,480 and 420 00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:02,320 particularly verbal text it was supposed 421 00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:04,079 to stop the the vocal tics 422 00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:07,519 yeah and in my view knowing what 423 00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,720 tourette syndrome is like 424 00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,480 i could see something like that actually 425 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:12,320 making the ticks worse so 426 00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:15,760 i think that it's it's not a very good 427 00:15:20,629 --> 00:15:16,959 treatment 428 00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:20,639 i guess you could try to be kind and say 429 00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:22,399 if you didn't strap it on their head 430 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,000 that if they used it as a 431 00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:27,360 means to try and mitigate their their 432 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,199 verbal tics and it was something they 433 00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,040 wanted to do fine 434 00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:33,279 but most kids especially young children 435 00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:34,480 wouldn't have 436 00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,759 the ability to to use it properly and to 437 00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:39,279 strap something on their head i think 438 00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:40,160 would be 439 00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:42,800 very cruel yeah it sounds like something 440 00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:45,360 out of the 17th century doesn't or some 441 00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:46,399 wacky cats 442 00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:49,199 or some wacky treatment like that yes 443 00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,680 yeah 444 00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:51,199 and the other one that of course are 445 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:52,800 very common are 446 00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,880 dietary measures lots of people i've 447 00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,120 i've come across will cut out sugar 448 00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,199 they'll they'll cut out gluten hoping 449 00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,880 that that will have an effect 450 00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:02,720 and there's actually no studies that 451 00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:03,920 have shown any of that 452 00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,639 is effective the only thing i could find 453 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:08,399 is that caffeine 454 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:10,560 can make the ticks worse but that's you 455 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:12,320 know a possibility it's not even 456 00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,600 researched that well yeah yeah well i 457 00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:17,279 get it sort of makes sense in the back 458 00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:18,720 of your head stimulant 459 00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:21,199 might exactly make ticks works i think 460 00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:22,880 they help my tics actually a coffee in 461 00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:25,440 the morning settles me down a little bit 462 00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:28,639 caffeine addiction who knows 463 00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:30,399 well i know this is a personal anecdotal 464 00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:31,759 thing that i know my kids 465 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,399 my my oldest and my youngest don't like 466 00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,160 to drink alcohol because 467 00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,920 they find their ticks get worse if they 468 00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:39,920 drink alcohol so they they just like to 469 00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,880 they'll have one drink 470 00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,160 they don't they're just not drinkers 471 00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:44,079 which is a good thing 472 00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:46,880 there's one other bit of information 473 00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,399 that i found really interesting 474 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:50,560 regarding the dietary stuff 475 00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:54,000 they did a survey i don't remember 476 00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:56,560 the people who did this survey but there 477 00:17:01,790 --> 00:16:59,360 were 115 people who returned their 478 00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:01,800 surveys and of those 115 479 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:05,439 101 people used 480 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:07,760 supplements dietary supplements like 481 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:08,640 vitamin c 482 00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,160 vitamin b vitamin um 483 00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:14,959 a there was a whole gamut of things that 484 00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:16,839 they were using omega 3 485 00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:20,480 supplements but what shocked me the most 486 00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:23,360 is i think it was 72 or in the 70s 487 00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:24,640 anyway 488 00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:27,600 we're using more than 10 supplements a 489 00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,160 day 490 00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:31,440 oh wow to try to help yeah with with the 491 00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:32,880 tourette's syndrome yeah 492 00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,679 so that that was really disturbing when 493 00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:36,960 i found that out 494 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,679 uh of course it was a survey so we you 495 00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:41,200 know it's they're hard to judge the 496 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:42,960 reliability of but 497 00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:45,200 i think it was very telling about the 498 00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:46,000 desperation 499 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:48,960 that some that many of these people have 500 00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:50,720 with trying to help their 501 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:53,360 their kids with tourette syndrome and 502 00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:55,120 it's it's the old story isn't it 503 00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,280 if one pill is good or perceived to be 504 00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:59,520 good then three must be better and four 505 00:18:01,909 --> 00:18:00,080 even better 506 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,919 and have a stronger dose and so on and 507 00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,600 so on but uh but 508 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:05,760 exactly generally speaking what what is 509 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:06,720 the the 510 00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:09,760 um the tried and true 511 00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:12,960 uh treatment or approach well the 512 00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:15,360 there are of course pharmaceuticals uh 513 00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:17,120 that's which i've just talked about a 514 00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,760 little bit 515 00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,679 then how difficult it can be to find the 516 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:21,520 right medication that will help 517 00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,160 with the tics uh as well as with say the 518 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:26,080 obsessive compulsiveness the anxiety 519 00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:28,080 or the adhd that tends to go along with 520 00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:29,120 tourette syndrome 521 00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:30,880 so it can take a while and of course 522 00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:32,160 there's always side effects so that's 523 00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:33,200 one of the reason i think 524 00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,320 people turn to these cam modalities is 525 00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,160 that they don't like the side effects 526 00:18:42,549 --> 00:18:40,240 that are happening with their kids and 527 00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:42,559 they're not getting success right away 528 00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:43,280 uh 529 00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,919 the other treatments that happen are 530 00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:46,880 called 531 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,640 cbit which is got cognitive 532 00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:53,360 behavioral intervention for tics which 533 00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:54,880 is essentially 534 00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,960 a version of cognitive behavioral 535 00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:58,400 therapy that's that's 536 00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:00,559 specific towards tics and there's 537 00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,559 exposure and response therapy 538 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:04,880 are are the the most common treatment so 539 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:06,880 it's when i went through 540 00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:09,600 with a psychiatrist with my kids it was 541 00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:10,080 sort of 542 00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,440 a multi-faceted treatment plan we often 543 00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:15,679 had occupational therapists involved 544 00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,960 to help with sensitivities we had 545 00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:21,760 neurologists involved with medications 546 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:23,200 as well as a psychiatrist 547 00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:25,360 as well as psychologists to do the 548 00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:26,720 behavioral therapies 549 00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:29,919 that i described so it was not just 550 00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,240 one doctor i i had very extensive 551 00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:34,000 treatment with my kids and it was 552 00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:35,120 successful 553 00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:37,600 that's good to hear in my opinion that's 554 00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,559 very good to hear 555 00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,640 now if people especially in canada want 556 00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,720 to find out more maybe they uh 557 00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:44,559 listening to this they've realized 558 00:19:48,789 --> 00:19:45,760 somebody that they know 559 00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:48,799 may well have uh have this uh situation 560 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,520 going on 561 00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,200 what's the best place they can go what's 562 00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,240 the url oh well there's tourette canada 563 00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,559 this is if you google track canada 564 00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:57,919 that's a great place to start 565 00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:59,760 it if you're not in alberta if you're in 566 00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:01,679 alberta or say bc 567 00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:03,600 we've got the tourette ocd alberta 568 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:04,720 network which 569 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,600 is through the university of calgary and 570 00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,880 if you google that you'll 571 00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,799 it'll come straight up uh i don't 572 00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:12,320 actually know the urls can i 573 00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:14,159 send that to you and you could put it in 574 00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:15,520 the show notes would that be something 575 00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:16,159 we can do 576 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:18,559 certainly will i certainly don't worry 577 00:20:21,830 --> 00:20:19,600 folks don't worry 578 00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,840 i mean you can just google those or you 579 00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:23,760 must listen to the skeptic zone adrian 580 00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:26,320 if you know about the show notes 581 00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:29,840 i bet you listen to the show just not to 582 00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:30,640 the very end 583 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:33,679 until recently that's right that's right 584 00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:34,480 well 585 00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:38,559 now you know what to do exactly 586 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:40,480 well listen adrian thank you very much 587 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:42,400 what a fascinating topic it is and i 588 00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,760 really enjoyed your talk 589 00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,679 at monterey skeptic camp which i will 590 00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,360 link to on the show notes again 591 00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:48,960 because i think that's all available 592 00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:51,200 online it was recorded 593 00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:53,919 at the time but for now once again all 594 00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:56,000 the way there in beautiful alberta 595 00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:58,960 canada and calgary thank you very much 596 00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:02,640 thanks for having me richard 597 00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,430 i started listening to ono ross and 598 00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,280 carrie shortly after i broke my arm 599 00:22:21,029 --> 00:21:15,039 and the doctor had told me i'd never 600 00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:24,070 thank you carrie 601 00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:25,520 owner ross and carey is just a podcast 602 00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:26,799 it doesn't do anything it's just sounds 603 00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:27,919 you listen to in your ears all these 604 00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:49,029 [Music] 605 00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:54,080 logical fallacies 606 00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:58,720 important that critical thinkers should 607 00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:01,360 know about them 608 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,679 a logical fallacy is an error we can 609 00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:05,360 make in reasoning 610 00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:07,280 but it usually crops up when we are 611 00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:13,750 some people might even knowingly use 612 00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:16,080 them to try and score cheap points in an 613 00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:16,960 argument 614 00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,240 due to intellectual laziness 615 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:22,799 they are traps we can fall into but if 616 00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:24,640 we know what to look out for 617 00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:26,720 we can spot them when they occur and 618 00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:34,830 this time we'll look at affirming the 619 00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:36,000 consequent 620 00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:38,320 this is when you assume or conclude a 621 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:39,200 cause 622 00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:41,600 for a phenomenon is based on the 623 00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:42,480 phenomenon 624 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:44,880 itself without taking other 625 00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,000 possibilities 626 00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:48,559 into account you can think of this 627 00:23:52,870 --> 00:23:49,279 fallacy 628 00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:52,880 along these lines if x happens 629 00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:56,559 then y is the result since y 630 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:01,200 has happened then the cause must be x 631 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:03,520 maybe our example will make this a 632 00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:05,120 little more clear 633 00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:08,240 i went to see a natural healer as my 634 00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,159 cold was not getting better 635 00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:12,559 she told me she'd seen this sort of 636 00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,840 thing before 637 00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:15,679 when another one of her patients had 638 00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:17,600 side effects from prescription 639 00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:19,520 medication 640 00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:21,919 so now i know to steer clear of that 641 00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:22,720 medication 642 00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,840 in the future a stubborn cold may be 643 00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:26,559 caused by 644 00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:29,760 many things ranging from picking up a 645 00:24:33,029 --> 00:24:30,320 second 646 00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:33,039 cold even as you are recovering from the 647 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,240 first 648 00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:37,120 confusing the cold symptoms with that of 649 00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:37,360 an 650 00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:40,720 allergy possible side effects from 651 00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:42,320 medication 652 00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,520 or even the cold virus itself 653 00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:48,080 being more resistant than normal to your 654 00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:48,720 body's 655 00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:52,799 natural defenses in our example 656 00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:55,760 there is no good reason to conclude that 657 00:25:01,750 --> 00:24:57,919 the prescription medication 658 00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:01,760 must be the cause my natural healer told 659 00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:02,400 me 660 00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:06,880 would get better 661 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:10,080 well my cold did get better therefore 662 00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:11,360 the homeopathic 663 00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,720 remedy worked another example for our 664 00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:16,799 man with a cold 665 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,640 this time he beat the cold but does that 666 00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:22,559 mean the homeopathic remedy 667 00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:25,679 really did work we can say 668 00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:29,840 that almost certainly it did not 669 00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:32,640 so therefore there must be another 670 00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:35,679 reason the cold went away 671 00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:38,799 but maybe we can see why he mistakenly 672 00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:40,559 credits homeopathy 673 00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:43,440 as he trusts what the natural healer 674 00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,039 tells him 675 00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:47,279 we've covered the appeal to authority 676 00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:48,880 before 677 00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:52,000 it's well known that sasquatch leaves 678 00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:55,039 giant footprints behind on a recent 679 00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:56,080 expedition i 680 00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:58,880 found some giant footprints therefore i 681 00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:59,200 know 682 00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:02,320 sasquatch is real as intriguing as the 683 00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:04,720 idea of sasquatch or bigfoot 684 00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:08,880 is and despite many giant footprints 685 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:09,360 being 686 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:12,960 found over the years the reality of such 687 00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:16,000 a creature is still in great doubt 688 00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:20,720 and that is after decades of searching 689 00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:23,679 it seems then that those plaster casts 690 00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:24,000 of 691 00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:27,200 giant footprints we've seen mostly from 692 00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:30,159 the 1970s and 80s 693 00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:32,640 could well have been produced by another 694 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:34,480 and very clever 695 00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:37,600 bipedal animal who likes falling people 696 00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:44,549 sometimes it just seems logical to 697 00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:45,520 conclude 698 00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:49,039 one thing leads to another sometimes it 699 00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:50,159 does 700 00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:53,279 but sometimes the original cause 701 00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:55,760 of an event may be something else 702 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:01,909 knowing a logical fallacy when you hear 703 00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:02,880 one and 704 00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:05,600 even knowing its name is important when 705 00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:08,159 arguing your point of view 706 00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:11,520 however you may come across as arrogant 707 00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:14,000 and not get very far if you call it out 708 00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:14,799 by name 709 00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,120 to your opponent when you hear it being 710 00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:19,200 used 711 00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:21,760 if your opponent calls you out for using 712 00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:22,559 one 713 00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:24,799 it's time to stop and think about how 714 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:27,840 you are making your case 715 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:30,000 use your knowledge of logical fallacies 716 00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,200 wisely 717 00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:33,919 and remember that even if your point of 718 00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:35,200 view is right 719 00:27:38,789 --> 00:27:37,440 and you know all the pitfalls in arguing 720 00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:38,799 your case 721 00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:41,279 it doesn't always mean you'll win on the 722 00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:42,399 day 723 00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:45,760 and as skeptics we must also remember 724 00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:48,300 that we too can be wrong at times 725 00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:51,360 [Music] 726 00:28:03,300 --> 00:27:53,120 i'm michelle bickersma from the vic 727 00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:03,310 skeptics thanks for listening 728 00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,029 i sure do miss going to those skeptical 729 00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,200 meetings in pubs and cafes 730 00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:15,200 to hear talks and interact with my 731 00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:25,590 i think i can help you with that 732 00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:28,870 who the hell are you i'm your skeptical 733 00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:31,600 fairy godmother angel from the internet 734 00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:32,320 you're my 735 00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:35,760 skeptical what relax richard 736 00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:39,279 i can make your wish come true what 737 00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:43,120 you mean free beer no 738 00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:46,799 no no the other wish oh 739 00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:51,520 oh really yes i have news of skeptical 740 00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:52,559 meetings and 741 00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:55,679 talks online oh oh 742 00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:58,480 oh yes of course yes skeptics cafe 743 00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,720 online by the vic skeptics 744 00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:02,640 brings you live and interactive 745 00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,039 skeptical talks via zoom 746 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:08,080 anyone anywhere in the world is welcome 747 00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:08,880 to join in 748 00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:11,279 on the third monday of the month just 749 00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,600 check out the skeptics cafe page on 750 00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:16,000 facebook to see when the next talk is 751 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:19,080 and who will be presenting 752 00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:21,760 alternatively see the vic skeptics 753 00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:26,080 website at vicskeptics.wordpress.com for 754 00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,880 details 755 00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:30,080 that sounds great a skeptical um god 756 00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:33,440 fairy angel mother um person 757 00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:36,799 and there are similar skeptical online 758 00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:39,200 talks happening around the country 759 00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:42,399 and all over the world all you need to 760 00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:44,559 do is search for them 761 00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:47,679 wow now just one more question 762 00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:52,320 yes what about the beer 763 00:29:59,430 --> 00:29:56,159 okay all right 764 00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,440 well just for you 765 00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:01,760 i'll make it so you can go to the 766 00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:03,200 supermarket 767 00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:06,559 buy whatever beer you like and drink it 768 00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:09,279 while watching the talk online at home 769 00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:10,080 and they say 770 00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:13,279 miracles never happen and to think i 771 00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:15,679 gave up being the tooth fairy for 772 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,250 goodbye 773 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:36,870 [Music] 774 00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:40,000 and now it's time to continue our weekly 775 00:30:44,029 --> 00:30:41,600 dive into trove 776 00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:44,039 and if you remember last week we had a 777 00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,279 demonstration 778 00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:48,320 of psychic ability or clairvoyance by 779 00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:51,760 mrs hughes who was relaying 780 00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:55,200 messages from the dead which in my 781 00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:57,440 humble opinion was nothing more than 782 00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:00,640 stock standard cold reading 783 00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:02,320 that is the technique of appearing to 784 00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,000 get messages from the dead 785 00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:06,480 but really boils down to a series of 786 00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:07,279 questions like 787 00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:10,720 do you know who is can you identify 788 00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:14,240 does the name fred mean anything to you 789 00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:16,840 is there an r in your name things like 790 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:18,100 that 791 00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:21,600 [Music] 792 00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:25,039 and to pick up our story mrs hughes was 793 00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,480 giving a demonstration of her 794 00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:28,159 clairvoyance 795 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:30,960 when she decided that she'd had enough 796 00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,440 and i will read the last paragraph 797 00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:36,240 before continuing lord amwell leaned 798 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:37,600 forward anxiously 799 00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:39,840 whispered to a neighbor now there's a 800 00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:42,240 name i'd like to hear more about 801 00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:46,640 but mrs hughes hesitated swayed a little 802 00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:49,840 paused her hand across her brow 803 00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:52,720 and said that at last she felt the power 804 00:31:59,860 --> 00:31:53,840 had gone 805 00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:59,870 and she could do no more 806 00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:01,360 [Music] 807 00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:04,399 one or two in the room rose 808 00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:07,519 while others fascinated by what they had 809 00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,039 just heard 810 00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:12,320 still sat expectedly wondering 811 00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:15,519 if once again mrs hughes force would 812 00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:16,320 rally 813 00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:19,360 do you mind if i go into a trance she 814 00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,480 asked all lights were turned out except 815 00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:24,559 for two small bulbs behind 816 00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:28,320 red shades lamps which formed part of an 817 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:31,120 altar that had been arranged on the 818 00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:32,000 mantelpiece 819 00:32:38,789 --> 00:32:35,120 of the seance room one 820 00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:38,799 60 watt bulb was also left switched on 821 00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:40,880 under the dark shade of a tall standard 822 00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:42,240 lamp behind the 823 00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:45,840 medium's chair she sat facing the circle 824 00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:49,600 this dim light behind her silhouetted 825 00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:53,279 her features almost invisible 826 00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:56,559 she asked for a little singing 827 00:33:03,269 --> 00:32:59,760 and by degrees 2 then 3 828 00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:03,279 4 and more of the circle began to join 829 00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:06,320 in a hymn but the group 830 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:09,600 including two famous clerics dried up 831 00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,760 on their words either through 832 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:12,799 forgetfulness 833 00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:16,960 or embarrassed by unusual circumstances 834 00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:19,519 mrs hughes who was sitting back in the 835 00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:20,320 chair 836 00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:23,120 still in the conscious state laughed 837 00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:24,240 softly 838 00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:27,679 and i can't help you another hymn 839 00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:31,200 was begun hesitantly and almost at once 840 00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:31,760 it was 841 00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:34,559 noted that mrs hughes head had fallen 842 00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:34,960 back 843 00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:38,640 and she grunted and shook herself 844 00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:42,399 at once the voice of white feather 845 00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,000 her alleged spirit guide was heard 846 00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:49,519 white feather good evening mrs hughes 847 00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:52,399 is physically tired tonight the medium 848 00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:54,320 turned to lady anderson 849 00:34:01,029 --> 00:33:58,000 do you know jean jean clarke 850 00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:01,039 jerry clark jerry clark you used to call 851 00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,760 her 852 00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:04,320 she used to sing she used to talk like 853 00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:04,960 this 854 00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:08,560 mimics and good night and god bless 855 00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:11,440 she resumed a man's voice there's a 856 00:34:17,349 --> 00:34:12,879 gentleman here 857 00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:17,359 he passed over drowning but not suicide 858 00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,280 how well or howard she turned to dr 859 00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:24,000 bendent who had previously been asked 860 00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:25,280 about howard or 861 00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:28,960 howath do you know lady 862 00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,399 to mrs bended a len 863 00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:35,599 or ken in the spirit world 864 00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,159 to mr ainsworth after leaning forward 865 00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:40,000 and holding his hand 866 00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:43,440 you have psychic power you know you can 867 00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,399 heal 868 00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:46,879 yes the day will come when you will be 869 00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,280 able to heal with the hands 870 00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,440 she turned to the surgeon and made a 871 00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:52,720 joking reference 872 00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:56,240 to his foot is there acid in the doctor 873 00:35:02,870 --> 00:34:59,760 vendor sir john jimmy wilson 874 00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:02,880 and again imitated a scots voice this 875 00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:03,520 time 876 00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:07,599 hartley nobody ever dies he said 877 00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:10,240 and the best is yet to be does anyone 878 00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:12,079 here know a lady who passed over with 879 00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:13,440 heart trouble 880 00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:16,720 adams adams she is a tired 881 00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:19,520 as if it were a sunshine day white 882 00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:21,440 feather spoke with a negroid 883 00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:24,720 accent here adams wesley adams 884 00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:28,000 mr viggers oh yes half laughing 885 00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:31,040 yes i know that white feather she was 886 00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:32,640 accustomed to wearing 887 00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:35,920 soft colored clothing laughs then voice 888 00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:36,560 became 889 00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:39,680 soft is there a mrs 890 00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,880 ainsworth could i take your hand 891 00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:45,520 mrs ainsworth stepped forward in the 892 00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:48,560 semi-darkness and lent over the medium 893 00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:50,720 a lady wants to give you her promise 894 00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:52,160 that you shall listen 895 00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:55,599 in she thanks you for all you have ever 896 00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:56,160 done 897 00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:58,720 mrs ainsworth thanked white feather and 898 00:36:03,990 --> 00:35:59,920 sat down 899 00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:04,000 marjorie turning to mrs bendent marjorie 900 00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:07,119 you know mrs hughes is physically and 901 00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,839 psychically tired perhaps she could 902 00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:11,520 arrange to take one or two of you 903 00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:12,640 privately 904 00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,760 white feather snorted mrs hughes threw 905 00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:17,920 her head back again and appeared to be 906 00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:20,160 coming out of her trance 907 00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,800 suddenly a child's voice was heard a 908 00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:24,000 little girl 909 00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,720 the suddenness of this startled everyone 910 00:36:32,069 --> 00:36:28,720 will you come and speak with me 911 00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,079 very eagerly it's a nice doggie i've got 912 00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:34,320 a nice doggie here too 913 00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:37,599 did you ever have a pekingese 914 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:40,240 i want to tell you that you can be happy 915 00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,680 everything will be all right 916 00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:44,079 the child seemed to assume that these 917 00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:46,079 two members of the panel being addressed 918 00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:47,839 are husband and wife 919 00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:50,320 although that had not been disclosed in 920 00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:51,599 conversation 921 00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:54,240 do you know what he should do is it a 922 00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:55,040 pain 923 00:37:02,069 --> 00:36:58,880 and 924 00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:02,079 salt peter for it general laughter the 925 00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:03,760 child sounded cross 926 00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:08,079 and does he like you know does he like a 927 00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:08,800 drink 928 00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,520 loud laughter the child's voice was 929 00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,280 drowned in the laughter and 930 00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:16,079 almost at once white feather returned 931 00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:17,680 the child was right 932 00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:20,160 there is acid in the doctor but he 933 00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:21,200 should do as 934 00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:24,160 she says the two acids will drive out 935 00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:25,440 the other acid 936 00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:28,640 the body is full of uric acid the medium 937 00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:29,920 pronounced this 938 00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:33,280 utric acid well 939 00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:36,400 and he must eat right yes eat right 940 00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:39,119 white feather grunted mrs hughes threw 941 00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:40,560 back her head again 942 00:37:49,349 --> 00:37:45,920 and in 12 seconds was out of her trance 943 00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:49,359 now the next section says panels report 944 00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:53,280 on mrs hughes lord amwell 945 00:37:58,069 --> 00:37:55,760 unfortunately when mrs hughes hit upon 946 00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:58,079 the one christian name that appealed to 947 00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,040 me 948 00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:01,760 and about which i should have liked to 949 00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:03,200 have heard more 950 00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,680 her power faded the medium jumped about 951 00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:07,440 like a pea on a hot plate 952 00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:10,240 and was not very convincing to me she 953 00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:12,400 was admittedly tired and 954 00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:15,520 as i thought highly strung 955 00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:18,560 sir john anderson most satisfactory 956 00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:20,000 demonstration 957 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:22,079 both christian and surname of the 958 00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:23,520 individuals given to me 959 00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,640 for identification very convincing 960 00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:29,280 a number of psychic sketches were made 961 00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:29,920 of 962 00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:35,920 which were recognized by the medium and 963 00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:37,920 this is proof of the activity and the 964 00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:42,000 reality of the spirit world dr bendent 965 00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:44,880 this quite apart from a personal matter 966 00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:46,960 to which i shall refer later 967 00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,520 was a relatively good session in spite 968 00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:51,680 of a good deal of fumbling 969 00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:53,520 there was a good deal of straight 970 00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:55,520 paranormal cognition 971 00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:58,800 some of it of a pretty good order 972 00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,359 for this type of work for example the 973 00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,280 picking up of the name of 974 00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:06,320 ainsworth almost exactly though in 975 00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:07,200 fragments 976 00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:09,760 then quite later accurately there was a 977 00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:11,839 good many other things too 978 00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:14,720 which would bear out mrs hughes claims 979 00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:15,839 of being 980 00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:19,119 psychic on the other hand there was 981 00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:22,560 except perhaps where i shall note this 982 00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:25,599 no evidence of any kind of 983 00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,640 spirits nor of contact with the dead 984 00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,359 the whole thing can be explained by 985 00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:33,119 telepathy 986 00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:35,920 for instance the second picking up of 987 00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:36,800 margaret 988 00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:40,640 howard or howath by mrs hughes 989 00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,760 is interesting it means either that a 990 00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:45,440 person of that name 991 00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:47,839 but a young girl whose married name is 992 00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:48,560 different 993 00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:51,680 has indeed died in childbirth which she 994 00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:52,480 had not 995 00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:55,520 a year ago as inquiry show i 996 00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:58,079 am checking up on recent events since 997 00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:59,839 that time 998 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:01,920 or that mrs hughes picked up on 999 00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:03,200 something which the 1000 00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:06,800 earlier medium had implanted in my mind 1001 00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,760 or else that there is some entirely 1002 00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:10,720 untoward and 1003 00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:12,800 unaccountable reason for linking up a 1004 00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:14,480 person of that name 1005 00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,000 and who would be an older woman 1006 00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:18,160 altogether with me 1007 00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:20,960 certainly nobody in my family had either 1008 00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:21,599 the name 1009 00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:25,040 margaret or anything like howath 1010 00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:28,400 the thing i feel which may 1011 00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:31,839 have some direct link with the mind of 1012 00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:32,319 the 1013 00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,119 mrs hughes quite 1014 00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:41,920 rightly diagnosed impending changes and 1015 00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:42,240 some 1016 00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:45,200 uncertainty as to their wisdom and 1017 00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:46,640 practicability 1018 00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:49,359 but the advice which briefly was to 1019 00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:50,400 carry on 1020 00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:54,000 fits in with my own and my wife's 1021 00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,200 views so she may only have been 1022 00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:59,839 dramatizing what was already in our 1023 00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,119 minds 1024 00:41:05,109 --> 00:41:03,119 but i have never felt myself cut off 1025 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:05,119 from my mother-in-law at any time since 1026 00:41:08,950 --> 00:41:06,160 she died 1027 00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:08,960 it is difficult to explain this but 1028 00:41:13,829 --> 00:41:10,319 there has been 1029 00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:13,839 no sense of loss or of absence i have 1030 00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,319 had no personal manifestations but 1031 00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,480 rather a feeling that she was still 1032 00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:21,920 here and taking much the same benevolent 1033 00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:23,520 interest in my activities 1034 00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,040 as she used to while she was alive nor 1035 00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,079 was it a sense of guidance 1036 00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:32,720 had we been contemplating anything of 1037 00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,440 the sort 1038 00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,760 we are now considering we should have 1039 00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:37,839 gone to her and said 1040 00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:40,880 what about it and she probably would 1041 00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:41,520 have given 1042 00:41:47,589 --> 00:41:44,880 a shrewd and intuitive answer this 1043 00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:47,599 felt rather the same now comes the 1044 00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:48,000 crucial 1045 00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:52,160 point this is not evidential in any way 1046 00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:55,200 nor am i myself in any way certain about 1047 00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:55,760 it 1048 00:41:59,589 --> 00:41:58,640 all i can say is that this may have been 1049 00:42:03,109 --> 00:41:59,599 so 1050 00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,119 and that it gave me a pleasant glow of 1051 00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:05,040 reality which none of the other 1052 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:06,960 experiences with mediums 1053 00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,240 had given before i emphasize this 1054 00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:13,040 because i believe that the sense of 1055 00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:15,280 dead people surviving is entirely 1056 00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:16,079 personal 1057 00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:18,720 and convincing only to the one who 1058 00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:20,160 experiences it 1059 00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:22,880 and even then only if he is reasonably 1060 00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:24,400 sure that he has 1061 00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:27,760 debunked his mind of the many factors 1062 00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,720 which would make him wish to believe 1063 00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:31,359 this 1064 00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,640 is a thing unfortunately rare anywhere 1065 00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:36,720 but especially among those who frequent 1066 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:39,280 seances 1067 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,400 mrs haldane she undoubtedly has a 1068 00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:44,560 considerable degree of extra sensory 1069 00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:45,520 perception 1070 00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:48,000 and showed paranormal characteristics 1071 00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:50,000 she did not convince me 1072 00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:53,440 in trance canon knight 1073 00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:55,280 i had the impression here of a medium 1074 00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:57,440 who believes that her work is part of a 1075 00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:58,160 christian 1076 00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:01,200 presentation although in the prayer 1077 00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:03,920 she made i could not help noticing that 1078 00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:05,920 she left out the words 1079 00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:09,599 where two or three are gathered together 1080 00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:13,040 was this on purpose i could suggest a 1081 00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:15,359 stop in the mind as to whether 1082 00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:18,880 it is indeed in the name i.e 1083 00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:21,520 in agreement with the mind of christ her 1084 00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:23,760 identification of mr ainsworth was 1085 00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:24,720 remarkable 1086 00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:27,760 if she had never met or heard of him 1087 00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:30,400 could she have heard the panel mentioned 1088 00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:31,040 somewhere 1089 00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:33,040 and retained the name in her 1090 00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:34,400 subconscious 1091 00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:37,200 and by telepathy made the contact i 1092 00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:39,119 could not feel that anything she 1093 00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,640 said really evidenced identification 1094 00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:45,040 of departed spirits beyond question 1095 00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:47,200 there were so many mishits and errors in 1096 00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,560 contrast to 1097 00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:51,040 apparent correct ones she asked if 1098 00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:53,520 anyone had a little daughter in 1099 00:43:57,430 --> 00:43:56,800 the other world i admitted to this and 1100 00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:57,440 she got 1101 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:00,640 the illness just about right but she 1102 00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:01,760 gave no name 1103 00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:04,800 and when she brought in a small girl in 1104 00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:05,680 trance 1105 00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:08,240 there was no connection with me anyway 1106 00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:09,920 it was 14 years ago 1107 00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:12,720 and the child on their belief and mind 1108 00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:13,680 should surely 1109 00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:16,960 grow up i dislike this trance effort 1110 00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:19,680 any major reshuffle of human personality 1111 00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,240 and 1112 00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:22,560 shift of reasoning power away from the 1113 00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:23,839 conscious level 1114 00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:26,880 makes me feel we are deserting the true 1115 00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:30,160 road and trying a queer pathway surely 1116 00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:33,280 spiritualism should evaluate the reason 1117 00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:36,319 not go beneath it i keep feeling that we 1118 00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:36,720 are 1119 00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:39,280 being pulled down below our present 1120 00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:40,000 levels 1121 00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:43,119 and not in any way raised above them 1122 00:44:51,010 --> 00:44:46,240 and that to me is a criticism of 1123 00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:51,020 the whole effort 1124 00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:52,480 [Music] 1125 00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,640 and there's a little box right at the 1126 00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,400 end of this page which says 1127 00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:59,280 next sunday the panel investigate 1128 00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:01,359 british mediums who tell how 1129 00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:09,190 and that was part two in our series into 1130 00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:10,480 the unknown 1131 00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,880 first published in the sun in sydney 1132 00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:14,240 australia 1133 00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:19,040 in september 1950. 1134 00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:22,400 and maybe you like me could tell 1135 00:45:27,270 --> 00:45:25,680 that uh call it claire audience or a 1136 00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:27,280 trance 1137 00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:30,960 that it was my way of thinking 1138 00:45:35,829 --> 00:45:33,200 simply an extension of cold reading 1139 00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,349 and it's interesting that people at the 1140 00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:39,280 time had different opinions 1141 00:45:44,829 --> 00:45:41,440 but including that it wasn't really 1142 00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:44,839 contacting the dead it was really more 1143 00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:46,000 telepathy 1144 00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:48,240 so yes next week we continue into the 1145 00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:49,200 unknown 1146 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:52,160 how does mediumship develop this was one 1147 00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:53,680 of the questions the panel 1148 00:45:58,630 --> 00:45:56,400 was asked to answer the riddle of 1149 00:46:01,290 --> 00:45:58,640 spiritualism a frank investigation by a 1150 00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:01,300 panel of experts 1151 00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:02,880 [Music] 1152 00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:05,280 and if you are impatient of course you 1153 00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:06,960 can read that and many other 1154 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,720 interesting reports and articles over 1155 00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,640 the decades that drove 1156 00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:12,480 the online resource from the australian 1157 00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:14,000 government and the national library 1158 00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,240 of australia digitize newspapers and 1159 00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:18,079 magazines and so on 1160 00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:43,430 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1161 00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:45,760 zone podcast tune in next week 1162 00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:49,359 for more in our series into the unknown 1163 00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:51,599 and also more logical fallacies coming 1164 00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,640 up 1165 00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:54,880 and we discover that maynard and i 1166 00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:56,000 moonlighting 1167 00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,680 have a ring up and astrologer service 1168 00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:02,160 what hmm find out what that's all about 1169 00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:03,280 next week 1170 00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:05,599 thank you to those people who contribute 1171 00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:07,599 to the skeptic zone via patreon or 1172 00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,640 paypal 1173 00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:10,079 as i said at the top of the show with 1174 00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:11,599 all the shenanigans going on in the 1175 00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:12,160 world 1176 00:47:17,349 --> 00:47:14,960 it's more important than ever that 1177 00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:17,359 people have access to critical thinking 1178 00:47:23,109 --> 00:47:20,480 and skeptical material and if you'd like 1179 00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:23,119 to contribute to the skeptic zone 1180 00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:26,240 you can do so at skepticzone.tv patreon 1181 00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:27,680 or paypal 1182 00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:29,760 lots of people have decided that five 1183 00:47:36,390 --> 00:47:32,480 dollars a month is about the right sum 1184 00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,400 which is uh just a tiny bit over one 1185 00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:38,720 dollar an episode 1186 00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:41,520 so if you think uh the skeptic zone is 1187 00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:43,200 worth a dollar to you 1188 00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:45,680 each week or just over a dollar then 1189 00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,119 that would be great 1190 00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,520 some people chip in a little bit less 1191 00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:51,119 and i thank them very much and some 1192 00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:51,520 people 1193 00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,720 chip in a bit more and in some 1194 00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:56,720 situations quite a bit more 1195 00:48:02,230 --> 00:47:59,680 and my gratitude goes out to markovic 1196 00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:02,240 who sent me details of his podcast 1197 00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:05,119 called where did the rabbit go which i'm 1198 00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,559 just discovering 1199 00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:08,559 and i'll link to that in the show notes 1200 00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:10,240 and a particular episode which is 1201 00:48:14,790 --> 00:48:12,000 episode 49 1202 00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:14,800 where marco looks at psychic predictions 1203 00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:15,680 for the year 1204 00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:19,440 2020 and for me being immersed in 1205 00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:22,720 predicting and predictions for the last 1206 00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:24,400 four years for this project 1207 00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:26,160 it's interesting to hear somebody else's 1208 00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:27,760 take on the whole 1209 00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:30,880 area of psychic predictions but for this 1210 00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:31,760 week 1211 00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:33,920 this is richard saunders signing off 1212 00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,510 you've been listening to the skeptic 1213 00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:42,960 zone podcast 1214 00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,750 for www.skepticzone.tv notes contacts 1215 00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:51,760 and to access the back catalog of 1216 00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:52,640 episodes 1217 00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:56,160 going back to 2008. you can follow the 1218 00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,240 skeptic zone podcast on twitter 1219 00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:01,680 at skepticzone visit our facebook page 1220 00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:05,200 or leave a review on itunes you can also 1221 00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:06,640 support the skeptic zone 1222 00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:09,839 via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone 1223 00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:10,640 podcast 1224 00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:13,520 is an independent production the views 1225 00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:15,280 and opinions expressed on the skeptic 1226 00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:15,760 zone 1227 00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:17,760 are not necessarily those of australian 1228 00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:18,960 skeptics or 1229 00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:37,109 hello to the after thoughts the people 1230 00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:39,440 who keep thinking after the music 1231 00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:41,119 for those people new to the skeptic zone 1232 00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:42,800 and thinking what the hell's going on 1233 00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:45,119 sometimes most times after the show 1234 00:49:49,349 --> 00:49:46,079 after the music 1235 00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,359 goes away the dice come out and this 1236 00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:50,880 week i have a d10 1237 00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:53,599 turn inside a die i have my dice rolling 1238 00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:54,000 uh 1239 00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:57,119 contraption here sent to me by listener 1240 00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:59,520 durray in the bay area thank you greg 1241 00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:00,319 gonna roll this 1242 00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:03,280 die three times maybe even four who 1243 00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:03,920 knows 1244 00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:06,319 and it's up to you to predict the number 1245 00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,599 that's going to come speaking of 1246 00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:09,200 predictions 1247 00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:14,880 right and i might even include a d6 1248 00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:17,839 anyway for the first roll it's a d10 so 1249 00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,040 guess away 1250 00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:20,720 will it be one two three four five six 1251 00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:23,200 seven eight nine ten here it comes 1252 00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:26,400 the first number this week is eight 1253 00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:29,520 so write that down eight 1254 00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:31,630 second number coming up 1255 00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:33,440 [Music] 1256 00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:40,390 one more one more with the d10 last 1257 00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:46,470 seven sounds like some secret code this 1258 00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:47,839 week's winning numbers 1259 00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,640 eight eight and seven and the 1260 00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,480 supplementary 1261 00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:54,480 i should go into the lotto business 1262 00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:55,520 we'll be on a 1263 00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,119 six-sided die here we go the 1264 00:51:02,630 --> 00:50:59,200 supplementary number the last one 1265 00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:02,640 so it's one two three four five or six